The size of an acupuncture point...

[Rob]

Hi,

In your experience, how big would say an acupuncture point is? Say ST36, or Kid3? I'm sure all points vary in size to some degree. In training we are lead to believe that the points are very small and we have to be deadly accurate (no bad thing!!), but is this true?

Are we talking the size of a pin head, a 5p coin, or even as big as a 10p coin?

What are your thoughts?

[feng]

The point has certain location, and it's size may vary based in the person's Qi condition, if the person Qi very strong the point has lot of Qi inside, it's size may big; if the patient very weak, the point's Qi deficiency, so it's size may small.

[Doc]

Hi,
In your experience, how big would say an acupuncture point is?

Hi Rob,
Just feel the size yourself. Put the finger over meridian and slowly move it trough the meridian. Place where point is is like a hole, your finger will sink little bit inside this hole. Follow the meridian and your finger will leave this hole, return to this hole again, moving backwards, your finger will sink again. Move your finger slowly inside the hole, you will find little formation inside the hole like grain of black pepper, it is the size of the point which you can feel yourself. It is like a grain of pepper inside the hole. Check character of acupuncture point, tsue, which represent the cave, or empty place produced after removing the stone. It is exactly what acupuncture point is: empty space with little stone inside
Hope it helps
Doc
http://www.acutepuncture.com

[AAPrescott]

In Five Element training a great deal of precision is placed on point location Exams are graded by a very stringent measure of a mm or so, far more precise than was customary in board exams when they used to be practical based. I do not think of this as an absolute there may be a range like a target, but the 'bulls eye' may be quite small. The needle is only given a slight manipulation and not reatained for any length of time in most cases. And so my thought is that hitting the bulls eye is more crucial in Five Element. If the needle is manipulated to a greater degree than I suspect a nearer miss is adequate. And I agree the more depleted the person the smaller also.

[Snowtiger]

My understanding is this: The points whether located on tracked meridians or extra points that have been mapped or even those which show themselves when an area requires treatment will vary in size depending upon the state of the patient. That is to say; when the person is ill or has an injury, the points in question will begin by being sore but not large in size. As the condition worsens the body and energy does it's best to highlight the areas that need treating consequently the points become larger and more sore. Palpation becomes easier the more this happens. This is the reason why points are able to be treated with acu-pressure when in an acute state, though needles are better.

Of course this is only my understanding of the human energetic condition and differing perspectives give differing explanations though they may describe the same thing.

)

[williamtell]

When studying the balance method by Dr. Tan what is emphasized is the channel and not the location of points. So it is more important to identify the trajectory of the channel and the location within an image is more important than exact location of point. Usually three points are done in a row. So from this it seems the points are the with if channel horizontally and the length of image area being treated.

In Master Tung acupuncture you have points located in reaction areas. Location seems to be important and again trajectory of channel. Tissue being treated is also taken into account ,so if you are treating bone you needle closer to bone, or if treating tendon you might needle into tendon. Different Tung acupuncture teachers locate the same point in different locations. Many Master Tung points are located between channels, like the three needle combination-Three Weights/San Zhong Between GB and ST channels. It is said that points like this treat both ST and GB.
Again by treating three points along the same channel we seem to get a greater result even if our location is a little off. There are a set of points called Ling Gu and Da Bai. Ling Gu is located at the junction of the first and second metacarpal bones on the LI channel but some say its at the same location as LI2.. Da Bai is located at LI 3 but closer to bone in V. Another st of points are located in LV2-3 area, Huo Ying and Huo Zhu. Huo Ying; Huo Ying is found 0.5 cun proximal to Liv 2; Huo Zhu is located just distal to the junction of the 1st and 2nd metatarsal bones. If you like needling four gates try needling these 4 points instead. The result in moving qi is 10 fold.

So it seems that LI 4 and LV 3 are very large reaction areas.

If you are not already familiar with Master Tung acupuncture Elotus has a number of free one hour webinars to watch in there TCM Wisdom Tube area.

When I studied Japanese acupuncture the emphasis was on treating the "live point" or "active point. Steven Brown says "The "alive point" is said to be a concept that started with Takeshi Sawada, a famous moxibustionist. This concept has been picked up by the meridian therapy movement, and is now a widely accepted concept in Japanese acupuncture."
In the book " Finding Effective Acupuncture Points" Shudo Denmei dedicates 8 pages to this concept.
This book translated by Stephen Brown is one of the best books to expand your understanding of points both philosophically and clinically. After finding the point you want to treat anatomically, you palpate for exact location. With this method the point is very small, the size of a rice grain.

2 articles on active points by Stephen Brown

http://www.jadeinstitute.com/jade/th...ive-points.php

http://www.pacificcollege.edu/pcom_s...pdf/sbrown.pdf

Some conclusions from this brief foray into considering the size of points:

1. The larger the needle you use the less accurate the location has to be. In school I was taught precise anatomical location. We used 30-32 ga needles. When I palpate for Active points I find the anatomical location to be a cun or more off in some cases and people. Since I use primarily 38-40ga needles I think the location needs to be more accurate.

2. If you use three needles, like Robert Chu is fond of saying tic tac toe three in a row, then channel location is more important than exact point location.

3. The anatomical area governs point size. So KI 3 is can be no bigger than a pencil eraser,While ST36 could be as large as a quarter.

4. If you use Chinese style needling with large needles and are going for a strong daqi response the point is bigger because you are really activating a nerve. It is my feeling that activating nerves requires less precision than activating a meridian.
5. Your location is much more important in tonifying/supplementing a point than sedating/reducing it.

[AAPrescott]

I agree that the larger the needle the less acurate one has to be. Similarly with greater manipulation and longer retention. And of course one will get some effect simply being on the channel. However, the descripition of a grain of pepper in the centre of the hollow seems a reasonable estimation of the bulls eye also. Although I believe this also varies, very depleted people and the points seem to get smaller.

[Acukinetics]

Hi Rob,
I always ask this question to my teachers.
From my experience it is through that some points are bigger than other (st36 is quite big, Kd3 if the person have a low Kd Qi have a depression, LI4 is also quite big) and you can feel with your finger before insertion.
I think that the centre of every the point is big like the tip of the needle, but is just a centre of a "fire", where the fire is such a zone of influence where the effect can be 90, 80,70%(think about a dart circle), so hoe precise you are, hoe better is de effect. (you can also refer about the effect of De Qi, but it can be different in according to the Zheng Qi of the patient).
I see a research where they can show the different layer in according to the meridian, x.e. yellow Sp meridian, green Lv meridian, blue Kd meridian. Every color was in according to the frequenties (Hz). I could see that the color are sfumate from one to the other, where the color really 100% is, there is the meridian and where points are, was the color more intensive. This explain why also when you are not very accurate, you get effect anyway!
My idea is that the most important is to stay in the line of the meridian, and after try to go so near possible to the chosen point.
I hope that I help you, what do you all think about?

[williamtell]

Hi Rob,
I see a research where they can show the different layer in according to the meridian, x.e. yellow Sp meridian, green Lv meridian, blue Kd meridian. Every color was in according to the frequenties (Hz).

This is very interesting. Do you have a link to this research to share, or the name of the people that did research/ imaging?

[Acukinetics]

This is very interesting. Do you have a link to this research to share, or the name of the people that did research/ imaging?

Hello william,
I just asked to the person that did this research, if I have the answer, I'll send you more information, ok?
Just send me your email in order to give you this information.
My email: info@acukinetics.com