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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlie b View Post
    On the BAcC Governing Board a third or fewer are connected to teaching institutions. I have a 20+ year association with the NCA in York, but my income from that is tiny and I have no interest whatsoever in trying to represent their particular interests and there is, in fact, little or no opportunity to do so. I have to say that I resent the suggestion that my representation might be bent or self-serving in some way. The only interests I have in mind are those of the membership as a whole. My own view is that the key problems with regulation of UK acupuncture are the proliferation of new "stakeholders" and the power and guile of the vested interests working against us to ensure we have no share in mainstream medical care - not that a few of us do some teaching. Indeed, the very wide network I have developed in teaching and other academic activities I believe has given me a vastly better insight into the collective acupuncturist will than sitting alone in a clinic!
    I was referring to both the BAC and ATCM. And a third, is a third too many! I believe the ATCM has a higher rate. But yes, we have parties working against us and our divisions, due to people's invested interests, make those parties' job a lot easier!

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by seanbarkes View Post
    I find myself in agreement. I feel uncomfortable with that too. Probably because they then call it acupuncture. I probably wouldn't have such an issue if they called it dry-needling or the like. Protection of title wouldn't give us that. We would have to have protection of technique. Imagine achieving that would began extremely difficult goal to achieve. The BAcCs role in leading educational standards is probably the best route for us.
    Apologies for going backwards but I just feel I need to go back over this point.

    We will never prevent "Non-Acup" practitioners from using needles - nor should we even try.
    It would be like Cox's growers trying to stop people eating other types of apples, not a viable or sensible plan. But when you have Granny Smith growers calling their apples Cox's so they can sell more - of course that must be stopped!

    I don't care whether NHS nurses, physios, osteos, chiros call their needling "Anti-Chinese pointy therapy", its really none of our business. But, unless they've completed adequate education/training in TCM/Acupuncture then they most definitely should not be allowed to use the term ACUPUNCTURE.

    This is absolutely fundamental and possibly the most important issue we have to fight about - it should mean the earth to us!!!

    Nick

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by charlie b View Post
    On the BAcC Governing Board a third or fewer are connected to teaching institutions. I have a 20+ year association with the NCA in York, but my income from that is tiny and I have no interest whatsoever in trying to represent their particular interests and there is, in fact, little or no opportunity to do so. I have to say that I resent the suggestion that my representation might be bent or self-serving in some way. The only interests I have in mind are those of the membership as a whole. My own view is that the key problems with regulation of UK acupuncture are the proliferation of new "stakeholders" and the power and guile of the vested interests working against us to ensure we have no share in mainstream medical care - not that a few of us do some teaching. Indeed, the very wide network I have developed in teaching and other academic activities I believe has given me a vastly better insight into the collective acupuncturist will than sitting alone in a clinic!
    It seems to me that every group, association and council in this country is made up of the "The good, the bad and the ugly", be they Lawyers, the WI or Acupuncturists.

    So Charlie, now that we've established that you are the good and have been around a while, what's to be done? It would be good to get some of your insights.

    I completely agree with your statement, "the key problems with regulation of UK acupuncture are the proliferation of new "stakeholders" and the power and guile of the vested interests working against us to ensure we have no share in mainstream medical care".

    To me it always comes back to the same thing - without the term "Acupuncture" being protected we have nothing, no strength, no grounding! Why hasn't anyone taken this to European court? Even Melton Mowbray pork pies and Cornish pasties are protected these days????

    And while we are fragmented the new "stakeholders" will continue pulling the carpet from under our feet whilst continuing to toss the odd grain of sweet rice in Nick Pahl's direction. And what's this seemingly obsessive need to link with NHS? - the term, "be careful what you wish for" leaps to mind.

    Nick

  4. #34
    Where is our JOANNA LUMLEY?

  5. #35
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    I agree. However, I would point out that here in North Carolina the licensing law defines who is allowed to call themselves acupuncture practitioner or acupuncturist. The DCs and MDs are exempt from the full requirements of licensure - they do 2-300 hour courses approved by their own boards - but are not allowed to use the titles. But in practice the public does not see the distinction. So I agree in principle, but in practice it does not make very much difference.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmalyon View Post
    To me it always comes back to the same thing - without the term "Acupuncture" being protected we have nothing, no strength, no grounding! Why hasn't anyone taken this to European court? Even Melton Mowbray pork pies and Cornish pasties are protected these days????
    I believe that you cannot define acupuncture as the meridians cannot be found, so it is not possible to protect it in law. Acupuncturist is separate as it's based on a level of education, so can be protected in law.

    Let's hope the channels can be found and then defined and protected in law.

  7. #37
    Well that may be the case in North Carolina but I assure you its quite different here. And as your "law defines who is allowed" to use the term acupuncturist then you are protected!

    "DC's and MD's" are not the problem here as most doctors are too busy to practice effectively and chiros, well, they do their own thing.

    As I'm sure you know, medicine in this country is tied up in a "free" monopoly. Brits therefore believe that medicine is a free right. This free monopoly has huge power and keeps us at arms length. Initially we were freaks, then uneducated, then unsafe, then unresearched and over 50 or so years each difficulty been addressed more than adequately. Now we are commonly more educated and more researched than a great deal of systems in place in this free monopoly.

    Now, simply, if this free monopoly trains up a great number of nurses and physios, quickly and cheaply they gain a great deal. Their nurses, district nurses and physios become far more effective. They don't have to deal with us and the public, as you rightly said, will not know the difference - and its "free".

    Anyone in this country can be called an acupuncturist!!!

    Of course the treatments will be weak and not as effective as they should be, but...........

    So whilst the development of TCM and acupuncture has been worked and reworked and built on over the past 50 years - we are having the rug pulled from under us!!!

    And you say your MD's and DC's still cant use the term "acupuncturist"!

    So, for you to sit there in your protected bubble and say "it doesn't make much difference" - is a bit of a cheek!!!!!

    In this country protection acupuncture is CRUCIAL!

  8. #38
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    I have no idea what the comment regarding 'protected bubble' means. I am simply sharing experience. A previous comment seems to suggest that legal protection of title may actually carry more weight in the UK. That is a good point, as a resident of the US I can attest that American exceptionalism exists on a personal level, and many rules and laws are not well adhered to. So a good point. But please avoid making discussions personal - I am not being 'cheeky' I am simply sharing experience.

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by nmalyon View Post
    It seems to me that every group, association and council in this country is made up of the "The good, the bad and the ugly", be they Lawyers, the WI or Acupuncturists.

    So Charlie, now that we've established that you are the good and have been around a while, what's to be done? It would be good to get some of your insights.

    I completely agree with your statement, "the key problems with regulation of UK acupuncture are the proliferation of new "stakeholders" and the power and guile of the vested interests working against us to ensure we have no share in mainstream medical care".

    To me it always comes back to the same thing - without the term "Acupuncture" being protected we have nothing, no strength, no grounding! Why hasn't anyone taken this to European court? Even Melton Mowbray pork pies and Cornish pasties are protected these days????

    And while we are fragmented the new "stakeholders" will continue pulling the carpet from under our feet whilst continuing to toss the odd grain of sweet rice in Nick Pahl's direction. And what's this seemingly obsessive need to link with NHS? - the term, "be careful what you wish for" leaps to mind.

    Nick
    yes Nick - working within the NHS, in my view, would compel me to join in the conspiracy that it has constructed against the customer and I would refuse to do that and so would be kicked out in no time!
    I fear that the time when we can make the legal case effectively to protect the title "acupuncture" has probably gone. 25 years ago I proposed that we use consumer legislation (OFT) to make a test case against a medical acupuncturist using the term acupuncture on the grounds that a consumer would expect an acupuncturist to not only insert needles but to do so following the theory that has accompanied it for 2500 years. Not to do so is a form of fraud and misrepresentation. To explain this to the hard of thinking I said that if a consumer wanted conventional medicine and then went to see a GP who waved a pendulum over a hundred different drugs and then said "take this one" they would be using scientific drugs but with an inappropriate methodology. A consumer of healthcare would be reasonable in demanding the associated methodology. This proposal, which would have been cheap and have risked no further loss than we have had already, was firmly rejected as being unsustainable and too confrontational. The problem now is that useage for the past 3 decades by the biomedically orientated would dilute the power of the case.
    Now I believe that our best bet is to more effectively promote the true meaning and value of authentic acupuncture and CM to the public, to legislators and to the medics and physios themselves. We have to remember that we are laying claim to long held and jealously-guarded medical terrain. We are a rival medical trade union and our progress will be resisted strongly.

  10. #40
    Hi Charlie,

    Yes, ethically, I could not be part of that institution either!

    Protection of the term "Acupuncture": it seems to me that it always comes down to the definition of acupuncture. Going through the dictionaries, medical and non-medical, Oxford, Collins, Websters, Macmillan etc. they all define acupuncture with terms such as, "used within TCM", "inserted at precise points along 12 meridians", "the ancient practice", "A system devised over 2500 years ago" etc. I have yet to find one that says otherwise.

    So, what is the definition of acupuncture? Or which one is being used?

    We know that every under-educated (in TCM) GP, Physio, Osteo, nurse etc. that tell their patients they are performing acupuncture on them are, in fact, lying to them! Absolutely, as clear as day and we should be able to demonstrate this.
    So where does the current definition of acupuncture come from? And if its not correct, it must be challenged and fought for and made correct!

    Has the time gone when we can make a legal case gone? I hear you but I can't help thinking that it hasn't gone. Very difficult but not gone. If "Acupuncture" can be defined correctly, honestly and legally then all else becomes clear and would naturally follow, as far as how much education/training is needed to practice and therefore who can call themselves acupuncturists.

    It doesn't matter what "medical" acupuncturists are doing - that's unchangeable and irrelevant - they could be using carrot sticks for needles, its nothing to do with us. We just need to focus on what Acupuncture actually is. What it really is!

    Sorry that your idea was rejected as "too confrontational" Charlie (a shame) but that was another time. If our organisations had larger kahunas then, perhaps we wouldn't be in such a mess now. We need to be confrontational!!! (Is it that Acupuncturists are such mild mannered, sensitive, unconfrontational types???)

    Yes, I agree that we need to promote the "value of authentic acupuncture to the public" but we should be doing that anyway - but are we really a rival medical trade union? (I wish) - rather a fragmented, multidirectional, connected by little more than passion and belief, set of professionals.

    Which leads me to my next question: Why is it we don't know who we are? - (not individually obviously, but as a unit).

    You used the word "Union" - we must unite, we must have a national and united rulebook.
    WE MUST MUSTER A UNIFIED IDENTITY - otherwise we will continue to be stomped on!

    Cheers, Nick

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