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  1. #41
    Just to add..............

    As novice practitioners, we quickly learned that to become excellent therapists we must first learn to know ourselves, not look through distorting ego lenses but to remain present and observe our patients with clarity. Acupuncturists, generally, tend to be fairly 'cluey' people.

    So, how is it that the elders of our profession, our leaders over the past 30 years have managed to lead us to such a no-mans-land, a place of disunity where we are potentially being eased out of our own profession and where the future does not look good? (Which, incidentally, I have no problem saying that in all that time, with the amount of intelligent minds available that is a truly shameful effort.)

    Its simple really, its all EGO. Overblown egos protecting their own clubs at the expense of the whole industry.

    What happens to the wisdom of the clinician when they become a gang member?

    Our associations' group egoism generates separation from each other and builds on it..........(We are bigger, we are more roots, we were the first, we have more doctors, we have more NHS links, we are more TCM etc. etc.)............and we as an industry are the victims of this foolishness.


    "The most striking peculiarity presented by a psychological group is the following. Whoever be the individuals that compose it, however like or unlike be their mode of life, their occupations, their character, or their intelligence, the fact that they have been transformed into a group puts them in possession of a sort of collective mind which makes them feel, think, and act in a manner quite different from that in which each individual of them would feel, think, and act were he in a state of isolation. There are certain ideas and feelings which do not come into being, or do not transform themselves into acts except in the case of individuals forming a group. The psychological group is a provisional being formed of heterogeneous elements, which for a moment are combined, exactly as the cells which constitute a living body form by their reunion a new being which displays characteristics very different from those possessed by each of the cells singly." - Gustave Le Bon.

  2. #42
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    I think it would be more positive not to look for someone to blame. I have been involved in the politics of our profession for many years and unfortunately I think what makes a good politician is probably not what makes a good practitioner - so we start from a disadvantage. Politics demands compromise with reality and we want to live up to our ideals. What some vehemently think is the only way forward others disagree with. Perhaps sometimes this is self interest, but sometimes it is sincerely held beliefs. There was a previous discussion of definitons. Our state law says:

    (1) Acupuncture. A form of health care developed from traditional and modern Chinese medical concepts that employ acupuncture diagnosis and treatment, and adjunctive therapies and diagnostic techniques, for the promotion, maintenance, and restoration of health and the prevention of disease.

    I was not in on the writing of this. I wonder what 'modern Chinese medical concepts' are? No different to Western medical concepts as far as I am aware. Or were they thinking of modern TCM and Five Element?

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by AAPrescott View Post
    I think it would be more positive not to look for someone to blame. I have been involved in the politics of our profession for many years and unfortunately I think what makes a good politician is probably not what makes a good practitioner - so we start from a disadvantage.
    Hi Everyone,

    I agree with the above, that practitioners are essentially not politicians, but isn't that why we have representative organisations, to defend us politically and legally?

    We have been told that statutory regulation will not go ahead by any means, which has left an open field for anyone, no matter how little training they have, to call themselves an acupuncturist. This includes the many members of the medical profession, who after training minimally in a superficial type of needling, are promoting themselves as the only safe and regulated way to receive acupuncture, and suggesting that anyone not medical is untrained, and dangerous!

    I was informed by Lord Ward Atherton that 'voluntary self regulation' is in ongoing discussion among the members of the 'Acupuncture Working Group', with the aim of a central government approved register, to which the various acupuncture groups will be registered.
    Whilst the AWG is still in discussion, Traditional Acupuncture continues to be trodden upon by other professions who are establishing their minimal training in needling techniques under the grandfathering laws.

    Many of the lead representatives of Acupuncture professional bodies, have a background and professional associations within the NHS, and seem to be more defensive of the practice of acupuncture within the NHS, by G.P.'s physios, and nurses, than they are of defending and protecting the professional qualifications gained by their own members. If we have little status now then how will we be viewed on a government register overseen by the HPC?

    There is no voice for TCM and traditional acupuncture publicly in this country, the long history of efficacy and the professional training of its members. We are not orthodox medicine, and we should not try to be, we should be proud of our profession and defend the very special title of acupuncture, it has worked for over 2000 yrs without scientific proof!
    If we hide behind medical regulation, because we are frightened of challenging them, we will lose our identity, our rights and our profession.

    We need to challenge not only the government and medical establishment but our own governing bodies, as to what is happening, what are their aims?
    Many countries have achieved government recognition of Traditional styles of acupuncture, in their own right, separate from the medical profession, why is the U.K. so inept at it?

    Why is the existence of AWG, not common knowledge among the acupuncture community, and why are none of the discussions, outcomes and direction that our profession is being taken in not made available to the very members whose future they are deciding?

  4. #44
    Jennie Longbottom is part of a school that promotes acupuncture training for "healthcare professionals", i.e. physiotherapists, nurses, gp's, chiropractors and osteopaths, chiropodists and podiatrists.

    Their foundation course in acupuncture is six days! The entrance requirements are that you belong to one of the above groups or The British Acupuncture Council, does this mean that they have the approval of the BAcC? Does the BAcC know that they are cited in the introductory information of this school, in a way that makes it appear as though they do advocate their training? Do they Care?

    The ICNM Journal in the summer, published a news item that supported the use of acupuncture by physiotherapists within the NHS, seemingly slapping the face of its paying members, who are complimentary therapists!

    Western Medical Acupuncture is defined as a modern medical system, separate from traditional, concepts and diagnosis. It has created a legal loophole to use the title of Acupuncture, without its practitioners having to train fully. Yet it still draws upon the traditional system, that it shuns, for its knowledge of point actions, locations and efficacy.

    Atillio asked originally if we have been totally shafted!
    I hope not totally, not yet at least, but we are definitely in the process of it, what are we gonna do about it?

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lisa View Post
    Jennie Longbottom is part of a school that promotes acupuncture training for "healthcare professionals", i.e. physiotherapists, nurses, gp's, chiropractors and osteopaths, chiropodists and podiatrists.
    I've just read that Jennie Longbottom has resigned from the Governing Board of the BAC.

  6. #46
    Firstly, well done Lisa for such an eye-opening post - you really did a fabulous job.

    I must admit to not knowing that Longbottom WAS a BAcC council member - that fact is really quite shocking when one knows the obviously inept courses she runs "teaching acupuncture" to healthcare workers in a only few days. Well done BAcC for taking action - even though it was really a "no-brainer" and it really shouldn't have taken a mere forum post to wake you up!

    The fact that she obviously felt this to be "OK" and was in such a prominent position in the BAcC is very worrying and demonstrates clearly to all you TCM/Trad acupuncturists that your associations do not necessarily have your interests at heart - don't blindly trust them - don't sit back and think they're doing they're best for YOU! - They're not!!!

    Lisa, you mention Lord Ward Atherton. I think its worth mentioning that LWA is a champion for physiotherapist acupuncture, a champion for "western medical acupuncture" and makes speeches in the House of Lords in support of both. This does not make him an ally, actually, more of a dangerously powerful opponent who sits on all the steering/working groups supposedly working for us!!!??

    Bizarrely, he is listed as a "TCM advisor" on the ICNM website??
    Though, I can find no record that he has any TCM knowledge at all. (He may do - i just cant find any record of this).

    Wishing all TCM/Trad Acups a happy and wonderful year ahead!
    Perhaps the Mayans were referring to Jennie Longbottom
    Stand up and be counted.

  7. #47
    Hi!
    You are absolutely right!
    Your words and the sayings are also according to the need of this age but it is sure that entire persons who may have a complete information and have a tendency to love for the country they can attained maximum scoring into a political voting.
    Algernon159

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by attilio View Post

    I believe that one of the main problems with the politics of acupuncture in the UK is the influence of colleges and universities within both the BAC and the ATCM. Most of the people on each of the governing boards are lectures from teaching institutions and are therefore bias in their political views as people are protecting their business/job interests at their associated teaching institute. Really, neither association should have lecturers or any person affiliated with a college or university on their governing boards. This causes political problems in the regulation of acupuncture which affects us all.
    In the light of Jennie Longbottom resigning, you couldn't have been more accurate Atillio!
    I hadn't realised that she was on the BAcC governing board! I was astonished to hear that.

    How many more of our representatives have their feet in the wrong camp? Really can they not see that furnishing their own interests in this way, to make a quick buck, is short sighted.
    If money is their greater aim then investing in the future of a strongly established profession would bring them a greater and more secure yield! Whats happening at the moment is they are storing their acorns in the foxes lair!

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Pahl, CEO, BAcC View Post

    As I mentioned on a brief phone call to Atillio this morning, the British Acupuncture Council does not advocate the practice of acupuncture by the likes of physiotherapists. We wish to engage with them so they understand BAcC members level of training and what we offer on the ground. A formal meeting with AACP regional co-ordinators to explain this is planned in the Autumn. Our NHS toolkit was clear on the differences between what we offer and other professionals who practice acupuncture.

    Nick Pahl
    CEO
    British Acupuncture Council
    In the light of Jennie Longbottom's resignation, this statement couldn't have been more inaccurate!

    We need transparency, openness, and one solid directional aim, from all of the people governing our profession, from all of the associations.
    They need to stick together, drop the snobbery and stop sucking up to the NHS, we will never have their respect unless we have established professional recognition first. Trying to jump through their hoops to gain their approval, will only make us their puppets.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Lisa View Post
    In the light of Jennie Longbottom resigning, you couldn't have been more accurate Attilio!
    I hadn't realised that she was on the BAcC governing board! I was astonished to hear that.

    How many more of our representatives have their feet in the wrong camp? Really can they not see that furnishing their own interests in this way, to make a quick buck, is short sighted.
    If money is their greater aim then investing in the future of a strongly established profession would bring them a greater and more secure yield! Whats happening at the moment is they are storing their acorns in the foxes lair!
    Sorry, it really is unacceptable to imply wrongdoing in this way without having any specifics. At no point in my service for the BAcC have I ever "furnished my own interests", "made a quick buck", made a "secure yield" or stored acorns in my foxes lair. And I am not aware of anyone else doing anything of that nature - I'm not even sure on how that might be achieved. I am on the staff at the NCA but, in the last 12 months I have delivered 1 days lecture. None of my official duties have benefited that college or any other institution. I teach widely across the UK and EU and this gives me a good insight into the people I whose interests I am representing - probably much better than someone who just practices and never goes out. The remuneration I get for my BAcC work covers about 1 hour of my time per week. I am currently spending, on average, 2 full days per week on BAcC business. I am not lining any nest but losing out considerably for the benefit of my profession. Can I respectfully ask you to desist in making inappropriate accusations unless you can cite specific instances of wrongdoing.
    Last edited by attilio; 07-01-2013 at 18:32. Reason: Spelling and grammar errors

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