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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by attilio View Post
    I know an acupuncturist who spotted a serious illness a GP didn't. That doesn't make the acupuncturist a GP and a physio getting good results with dry needling doesn't make them an acupuncturist or competent at acupuncture. Sticking a needle where it's painful isn't rocket science and isn't acupuncture. This type of technique is only limited to pain. Problem is i know of many physios treating everything else as well with acupuncture, for example insomnia, anxiety, stress, menstrual problems, etc.

    I challenged the AACP a few years ago about their members treating everything with acupuncture. Their reply was: "Our accredited members are trained to use acupuncture in an evidence based way to treat pain. Their practice is mainly but not uniquely limited to musculo-skeletal conditions. Following accreditation members are able to extend their scope of acupuncture practice by attending further training courses, such as "women's health". We have approximately 200 members who have completed a minimum of 200 additional hours of training to gain a post graduate diploma in acupuncture." Didn't stop that physio from treating outside their remit and many of them do.
    Again, i don't dispute that. I do dispute that all physios who use dry needling are of no value or dangerous. We need to focus on standards in our own profession before criticising others. Note that I refuse to use the term Acupuncture in relation to physios who use the technique as an adjunct. Acupuncture is clearly a technique used within a Chinese medical framework and so it's a term that cannot be used to describe what a physio does however useful that may be to a patient. For me it's a matter of differentiation. Frankly, I think you'll find physios want to be called physios, not acupuncturists. I do object to them using the term Acupuncture to describe what has been learned on a short course.
    I always think a lovely way of explaining this to Physios, Chiros and Osteos who use dry needling and call it acupuncture is to ask if they feel it would be OK for me to do a couple of weekends in manipulation etc. and then call myself a physio/chiro/osteo. A fun debate would inevitably ensue ;-)

  2. #22
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    We are also shooting ourselves in our own foot, when you have practitioners of acupuncture, such as Jennie Longbottom, offering weekend courses to medical doctors, http://www.cpdo.net/cpda/cal.html#3. Learning a 2000 year old medicine in a few weekends is like learning western medicine in one weekend. Impossible! The BAC and other associations should stop practitioners from offering these courses. CPD courses and all workshops should also be regulated.

  3. #23
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    I find myself in agreement. I feel uncomfortable with that too. Probably because they then call it acupuncture. I probably wouldn't have such an issue if they called it dry-needling or the like. Protection of title wouldn't give us that. We would have to have protection of technique. Imagine achieving that would began extremely difficult goal to achieve. The BAcCs role in leading educational standards is probably the best route for us.

  4. #24
    This thread really needs to keep going! (Good stuff everyone)

    A great question Attilio and how refreshing it is to hear TCM acupuncturists speaking politically with such openness. Of course we have been shafted and are continuing to be........

    Our professional associations are feeble and misguided and in boasting about their greater size, the BAcC must carry the greater blame. It’s difficult trying to think of another industry in the British modern era that has been hobbled and misled as much as Acupuncture and TCM.

    Steven Owens is quite right in saying it was a big mistake BAcC not joining with ATCM and other TCM organisations. It is a major reason why there is such weakness at the top - when up against the BMA, NHS, drug companies and the government, strength and a solid union are crucial.
    (A side point – ATCM is not a “Chinese organisation” it is a UK organisation)

    This constant striving to go down the western research path, to prove oneself with double blind studies is all very well and wonderful if we were a protected industry. But there is no protection for Acupuncture or TCM – therefore we are being eaten alive!

    Lets say a piece of research shows that points, A, B and C relieve back pain.

    Would the NHS choose a nurse or physio to use points A, B and C, which they would have been taught over a “whole” weekend, healthcare workers who are already in the system who know virtually nothing else but points A, B and C, thus they’ll not be practicing an art, they’ll not be using other points, any other skills or techniques, not advising on diet, lifestyle or exercise, or, God forbid, mentioning herbal medicine?

    Yes, of course that is what the NHS would choose, and it is what they are doing up and down the country. It means they have “acupuncturists” who are actually controlled by their own ignorance. They do not want TCM practitioners practicing Acupuncture; there are way too many perceived variables, and therefore a perceived lack of control.

    If Acupuncture and TCM were protected then wonderful, spend all your time striving for NHS acceptance Mr Pahl, but as it stands, your efforts are doing nothing but opening up third-rate “acupuncture” for nurses, physios, and anyone already in the NHS who is willing to go on a weekend course!

    Nick Malyon

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmalyon View Post
    A side point – ATCM is not a “Chinese organisation” it is a UK organisation.
    Hi Nick and all,

    The ATCM is a UK organisation run mainly by Chinese nationals for Chinese nationals. I was at their GM last week and it was a case of spot the westerner. I believe it's probably made up by 85-90% of Chinese nationals. This is all well and good, but then they push for pro-Chinese agendas, like opposing the English language requirement for regulation, which i strongly oppose.

  6. #26
    Hi Atillio,

    Yes, indeed I understand and am an ATCM member myself. (Didn't make it to AGM last week, as you noticed).

    The ATCM also need to understand that they are a UK organisation, no matter what percentage of Easterners to Westerners, and that their isolationism makes them just as culpable for the weakness of TCM leadership in this country. Hopefully, they'll learn as quickly as possible, that TCM clinicians must, of course, have an appropriate level of English and fighting this cause is a waste of time, money and energy. I believe this has also been an ongoing problem in the NHS too?

    Obviously, the amount of Easterners and Westerners is an irrelevant concept - just as long as we all pull in the same direction!
    Do we have a chart and compass, do we have a navigator, do we have the will, the strength??

    All ATCM members were just given a nice little 8Gb memory stick with the ATCM logo on it - very sweet and quite useful but my colleagues and I cant help thinking why that money was not going towards our campaign?

    Nick Malyon

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmalyon View Post
    Obviously, the amount of Easterners and Westerners is an irrelevant concept - just as long as we all pull in the same direction! Do we have a chart and compass, do we have a navigator, do we have the will, the strength??
    United we stand, divided we fall. And unfortunately, we are a divided field, largely because of acupuncture and herbs being separate in this country and the 5E camp versus TCM.

  8. #28
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    I have to admit that I have not read all the messages in this thread so forgive me if I am jumping ahead. I do agree that 'divided we fall'. I actually believe that acupuncture and herbs need to be viewed as separate professions. In the US we are seeing a lot of difficulties from the conflation of the two. I think the FE/TCM divide is unfortunate, but I thought that having one B.Ac.C. that merged the old BAS, TAS and IROM had largely unified us at least politically. It sounds from some messages as if this may not be the case. We had a similar situaion in the states for some time where our main national body split into two (AAOM and Alliance), they re-merged a few years ago into the AAAOM.

    I find that reading EJOM or the 'Acupuncturist' there is a much more rounded view of clinical practice, and a much more balanced approach politically in the UK than I find in the US. Including the separation of herbs and acupuncture.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by AAPrescott View Post
    I think the FE/TCM divide is unfortunate, but I thought that having one B.Ac.C. that merged the old BAS, TAS and IROM had largely unified us at least politically. It sounds from some messages as if this may not be the case.

    I find that reading EJOM or the 'Acupuncturist' there is a much more rounded view of clinical practice, and a much more balanced approach politically in the UK than I find in the US. Including the separation of herbs and acupuncture.
    The BAC represents most western acupuncturists but not everyone. There are other associations such as the ATCM, which is made up of TCM practitioners who practice acupuncture and herbs together.

    EJOM and The Acupuncturist are both published by the BAC, so sing from the same hymn sheet. However, this doesn't mean there is one political view in the UK.

    I believe that one of the main problems with the politics of acupuncture in the UK is the influence of colleges and universities within both the BAC and the ATCM. Most of the people on each of the governing boards are lectures from teaching institutions and are therefore bias in their political views as people are protecting their business/job interests at their associated teaching institute. Really, neither association should have lecturers or any person affiliated with a college or university on their governing boards. This causes political problems in the regulation of acupuncture which affects us all.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by attilio View Post
    The BAC represents most western acupuncturists but not everyone. There are other associations such as the ATCM, which is made up of TCM practitioners who practice acupuncture and herbs together.

    EJOM and The Acupuncturist are both published by the BAC, so sing from the same hymn sheet. However, this doesn't mean there is one political view in the UK.

    I believe that one of the main problems with the politics of acupuncture in the UK is the influence of colleges and universities within both the BAC and the ATCM. Most of the people on each of the governing boards are lectures from teaching institutions and are therefore bias in their political views as people are protecting their business/job interests at their associated teaching institute. Really, neither association should have lecturers or any person affiliated with a college or university on their governing boards. This causes political problems in the regulation of acupuncture which affects us all.
    On the BAcC Governing Board a third or fewer are connected to teaching institutions. I have a 20+ year association with the NCA in York, but my income from that is tiny and I have no interest whatsoever in trying to represent their particular interests and there is, in fact, little or no opportunity to do so. I have to say that I resent the suggestion that my representation might be bent or self-serving in some way. The only interests I have in mind are those of the membership as a whole. My own view is that the key problems with regulation of UK acupuncture are the proliferation of new "stakeholders" and the power and guile of the vested interests working against us to ensure we have no share in mainstream medical care - not that a few of us do some teaching. Indeed, the very wide network I have developed in teaching and other academic activities I believe has given me a vastly better insight into the collective acupuncturist will than sitting alone in a clinic!

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